Distinguishing a SCC-1 vs. SCC-1a - an easy test?

[Shadow Lord]

Hello All,

I am trying to determine if an SCC-1 (comes in SCC-1 box and has SCC-1 silk screened on the board) could be one of the boards that have the 354 voices of the SCC-1a but are still marked as a SCC-1. Looking through the board I found the following thread here: http://queststudios.com/smf/index.php/topic,1949.msg20078.html#msg20078 where the Great Hierophant says a test needs to be devised. I was wondering if anyone has tried the test suggested in the SCC-1 FAQ http://ftp.cs.uu.nl/pub/MIDI/DOC/FAQS/SCC1-FAQ.

At the very end he talks about the different boards, at addendum in the manual and a way to test an actual board. From what I gather all he does is try to play a one note song using one of the extra instruments. However, as I have no experience with composing MIDIs nor have access to the SW I can not perform the test. IT seems to me though that someone could just MAKE a MIDI file set to play using one of the extra instruments and then any MIDI player could be used to test an SCC-1. Is this correct? If so could a kind soul please produce said MIDI file and post the original and modified MIDI for the rest of us talentless slobs to use for testing? THANK YOU!

[Shadow Lord]

Well,

According to the FAQ you don't even have to have a scc-1. You just have a one sample MIDI and then set it to play a SCC-1a sample. If it plays you have an scc-1a if it does not you have an scc-1. You just need someone who can make a MIDI.

[Cloudschatze]

Unless there is some actual evidence to the contrary, isn't the following true?

SCC-1: 317 tones
SCC-1a: 354 tones

Furthermore, the original SCC-1 cards have the "fallback" feature, so selection of non-present tones (< Bank 64) will simply result in the playback of alternate, capital/sub-capital tones instead. This might cause one to mistakenly think the extra tones are present, unless you specifically knew what to listen for.

[Shadow Lord]

Unless there is some actual evidence to the contrary, isn't the following true?

SCC-1: 317 tones
SCC-1a: 354 tones

Furthermore, the original SCC-1 cards have the "fallback" feature, so selection of non-present tones (< Bank 64) will simply result in the playback of alternate, capital/sub-capital tones instead. This might cause one to mistakenly think the extra tones are present, unless you specifically knew what to listen for.

This is true but apparently there were some last bits of scc-1 marked cards which were scc-1a as far as features and capabilities went...

As for the MIDI file I am going by my limited understanding of what is in the FAQ (linked above). Someone with more knowledge may better understand it.

[Cloudschatze]

This is true but apparently there were some last bits of scc-1 marked cards which were scc-1a as far as features and capabilities went...

According to whom, exactly?

The FAQ is incorrect in that someone testing an SCC-1 for the new tones won't hear silence if they're not present.

[endre1952]

The SC-55 has 16-bit output resolution, while the SC-55 MKII has 18-bit. Does the SCC-1a have 16-bit output resolution?

[Shadow Lord]

According to whom, exactly?

The FAQ is incorrect in that someone testing an SCC-1 for the new tones won't hear silence if they're not present.

There is one discussion here: http://queststudios.com/smf/index.php/topic,1949.msg20078.html#msg20078. There was one more discussion but I can't find it right now.

Okay then if the FAQ is incorrect then there is no easy test!

[Cloudschatze]

This is all rather unnecessary, but here's a little MIDI test:

http://www.symphoniae.com/misc/comp.mid

The MIDI file consists of two C-major chords. If both chords sound identical, the new tones are not present.

[Great Hierophant]

This is all rather unnecessary, but here's a little MIDI test:

http://www.symphoniae.com/misc/comp.mid

The MIDI file consists of two C-major chords. If both chords sound identical, the new tones are not present.

While not directly on point, the two tones sound identical on a SC-55 and different on an SC-55ST.  

There is another difference between the SCC-1 vs. the SCC-1A: the box for the SCC-1A has the General Midi as well as the GS logo, whereas the SCC-1 box should only have the GS logo.  This means that the SCC-1A should respond to the GM reset by disabling the GS features (variation tones), whereas a SCC-1 would treat a GM reset like a GS reset.  According to the box, the polyphony is still 16-bit.  However, the General Midi branding  may just be that and not signify any change in the functionality of the device when receiving a GM reset as opposed to a GS reset.

The box states that the cards still only has 24-voice polyphony, not the 28-voice polyphony of the SC-55mkII.  Capital Tone Fallback feature should still be present in these modules as it is mentioned in Sound Canvas manuals with the GM logo on them (SC-155). 

[Cloudschatze]

There is another difference between the SCC-1 vs. the SCC-1A: the box for the SCC-1A has the General Midi as well as the GS logo, whereas the SCC-1 box should only have the GS logo.  This means that the SCC-1A should respond to the GM reset by disabling the GS features (variation tones), whereas a SCC-1 would treat a GM reset like a GS reset.  According to the box, the polyphony is still 16-bit.  However, the General Midi branding  may just be that and not signify any change in the functionality of the device when receiving a GM reset as opposed to a GS reset.

From what I can tell, the SCC-1a is, more-or-less, just a PROM/CPU-upgraded SCC-1 (I can't tell from photos whether the DAC has been upgraded or not). While this would include things like responding to a GM System On, like you mentioned, or containing the extra tone parameters, it wouldn't do anything for polyphony.

(In fact, just looking at the PROM chip is an indication of whether the new tones are present - any "GSS" or "GSS2" labeled PROM shouldn't have them.)

So... 16-bit polyphony, eh?

The box states that the cards still only has 24-voice polyphony, not the 28-voice polyphony of the SC-55mkII.  Capital Tone Fallback feature should still be present in these modules as it is mentioned in Sound Canvas manuals with the GM logo on them (SC-155).  

Not necessarily. Depending on its release date (which I can't seem to verify...), the SCC-1a may actually lack this feature. Perhaps someone can test this...

[Shadow Lord]

This is all rather unnecessary, but here's a little MIDI test:

http://www.symphoniae.com/misc/comp.mid

The MIDI file consists of two C-major chords. If both chords sound identical, the new tones are not present.

Thanks for the file. I will test it on the SCC-1. But just for curiosity I played it on my laptop (Lenovo x200t) and the two chords sound different. Is this to be expected? I.E. the software synth has the full GS compliment so it should play the two chords differently?

[Cloudschatze]

The MIDI file consists of two C-major chords. If both chords sound identical, the new tones are not present.

But just for curiosity I played it on my laptop (Lenovo x200t) and the two chords sound different. Is this to be expected?

Yes

[Cloudschatze]

This is all rather unnecessary, but here's a little MIDI test:

http://www.symphoniae.com/misc/comp.mid

So, were any of you SCC owners going to try this and post the results? 

I'm still looking to debunk the myth of any "SCC-1"-marked cards having 354 tones.

[Shadow Lord]

So, were any of you SCC owners going to try this and post the results? 

I'm still looking to debunk the myth of any "SCC-1"-marked cards having 354 tones.

I am still planning on trying it out as soon as real life permits. Maybe this weekend. However, I don't know if you can debunk the myth only prove it. I.E. negative results don't mean the units don't exist it just may mean no one reading this board has one!

[Cloudschatze]

However, I don't know if you can debunk the myth only prove it. I.E. negative results don't mean the units don't exist it just may mean no one reading this board has one!

Very well. Completely false until proven otherwise.

[Shadow Lord]

 Cloudschatze,

Sorry it took me so long to test out the file, but I finally got around to it right now. I m happy o report that the test seems to be valid. Playing the file on all my other systems (laptop w/ Win7, SB X-Fi on my WS, or even on my mac) produced two tones. However, playing the file on my SCC-1 produced the same tone TWICE. To me this says:

1. I did not get lucky and my scc-1 is a scc-1
2. On a scc-1a, or an unmarked scc-1a, the user would get two distinctly different tones!

Thanks again for making the file!

[sNaKe]

This is all rather unnecessary, but here's a little MIDI test:

http://www.symphoniae.com/misc/comp.mid

The MIDI file consists of two C-major chords. If both chords sound identical, the new tones are not present.

my scc-1 makes TWO different tones!

[Shadow Lord]

I think that seals the deal then! This test can work as a means of figuring out if your SCC-1 is functionally an SCC-1A. Anybody else care to run the test?

[Cloudschatze]

This is all rather unnecessary, but here's a little MIDI test:

http://www.symphoniae.com/misc/comp.mid

The MIDI file consists of two C-major chords. If both chords sound identical, the new tones are not present.

my scc-1 makes TWO different tones!

Mind posting a photo of your card and/or a recording of the MIDI-file playback?

[Shadow Lord]

Mind posting a photo of your card and/or a recording of the MIDI-file playback?

Good point. My enthusiasm aside it would be nice to approach this a bit more rigorously.