The truth about waveblaster - the sequel

[Salient]

Since the other topic has been shut down, and I would still like to discuss this stuff some more i opened up the same kind of topic and hope people will continue here (without swearing and making insinuations to other people please).

Here is the text I wanted to write in the previous topic but before I could press send it was closed.

It's the incidence of one simple MIDI controller. It's nothing more than trying usually synthy and sterille Roland patches to liven up a bit. For example the Roland's oboe, sax, and many other instruments - some el. gutars also - have synthy punch and almost no natural vibrato, so the music composers sometimes put the "LFO" artificial vibrato, or other similar MIDI effects to help the sound not sounding so sterille.

I don't completely agree with you as these so called Sound Canvas optimized (may I call them that?) play perfectly fine on my Yamaha MU2000 and my previously owned Yamaha MU80, Korg 05RW, Hammond GM1000, Korg NS5R sound modules. Also on most of my other more obscure wavetable cards they play fine (although of some of these cards, since they only have 1mb rom or even less the quality is highly questionable of course).
So, just my thoughts spoken out here, couldn't it be some MIDI controller implementation error of the WB card?
And in the example of Alienz (here we go again ) we are talking about a synth track, with synthy instruments (and not acoustic instruments). Aren't they SUPPOSED to sound synthy and sterile??

But because the WB's samples are in most cases very natural and high-quality itself, they don't need these artificial "improvements". They allready have them within in the natural way (right vibrato in the oboe, flute for example). Thus it sounds in some cases exaggerated then on the WB, but it's more WB's quality than insufficiency.

Here I must comment some things as well if you don't mind. Although, and you already I think that way, you are right about several instruments that they are more natural (and maybe even higher quality) I also must say that I can hear some strong weaknesses as well. For instance the snare drum and crash cymbal. You have to agree with me that they really don't sound nice at all. The snare drum really does not sound like a snare drum at all, and both that sample and the crash cymbal are quite lo-fi in my opinion. The bassdrum lacks the attack (it seems as the very beginning of the sample has been cut off) and therefore sounds unnatural to me.
No GM module is perfect I guess.

It could be fixed with altering the CC values or letting out completely. However, for example the orchestral woodwins of WB have so good basic samples, that even with these unnecessary effects usually sound great (like in AT Peaceful for example). What's most conclusive - the MIDI files created directly for the SC-55 for example (mainly the pop genre usually), are just full of these artificial vibratos and altering of the sound. That's one of the reasons why SC55's MIDI sound relatively very good, but good only played by the Roland synth. Hopefully most game music authors used this effects only sporadically, because they are often trying to make as possible more "general" MIDI and not so hardly SC-dependings soundtracks, althoug many here are obsessed with the idea that GM soundtracks=absolute Sound Canvas, always. But I'm almost afraid posting it here, because some Rolanders surely will attack this explanation, as usuall. But I want to remark that I was an owner of Roland SCD-15 for two years and I inspected many music and game files in order to claim this.

As to remixes, I would normally anser that yes, I will make them, but in this situation I still have to figure out... I allready put many effort and energy to bring many examples of various instruments and musical situations, as well as most possible objective comparisons of concrete musical instruments, ....

I would really like to hear the midi file 'fixed' for the waveblaster still. And I have now, thanks for the effort (your effort IS being appreciated).
For the rest, see my earlier comment about playing GM files on other devices than Roland Sound Canvas.
We (at least I) do respect your opinion, and I can also see that in some respects you have a good point, but I don't agree with everything, please respect that too, not only from me but from others as well.

I hope you appreciate the recordings I made, and enjoy the other comparisons too.

[Ari]

Salient, I would have preferred it if you didn't comment directly to WBman's flaming, so that the old thread doesn't continue to deteriorate as it did before.
I'm still going to allow this. Just keep it civilized, guys (I know you will ).

[andrew603]

I'd still like to hear some SQ6, or SQ5.  Not sure if you've recorded any of that yet.

[WBman]

Salient: I would prefer too if you would start it more like a new topic on a clear page. Never mind.
In a very short - I've sent you the quickly fixed Alienz, you heard it, technically it's a matter of pitch bend sensitive. No MIDI CC error, of course. I could explain it in more detail, but it's nothing important.
About drums - sure, most of them are far more conservative.
Hovewer, Salient, may I ask you, would you be so kind to complete the list with the SC-55 samples? I've added some more musics. Thanks.

Wave Blaster:
http://sites.google.com/site/waveblastergm/Lands-voices-WB1.ogg
Wave Blaster - no reverb:
http://sites.google.com/site/waveblastergm/Lands-voices-WB1noreverb.ogg
SC-55 versions please:
http://sites.google.com/site/waveblastergm/Lands_17.mid

Wave Blaster:
http://sites.google.com/site/waveblastergm/SamMax-Snuckeys4-WB1.ogg
Wave Blaster - no reverb:
http://sites.google.com/site/waveblastergm/SamMax-Snuckeys4-WB1noreverb.ogg
SC-55 versions please:
http://sites.google.com/site/waveblastergm/SNUCKEY4X.MID

Wave Blaster:
http://sites.google.com/site/waveblastergm/AzraelsTear-Ingame-WB1.mp3
Wave Blaster - no reverb:
http://sites.google.com/site/waveblastergm/AzraelsTear-Ingame-WB1noreverb.ogg
SC-55 versions please:
http://sites.google.com/site/waveblastergm/INGAME.XMI

Wave Blaster:
http://sites.google.com/site/waveblastergm/Death-WB1.ogg
Wave Blaster - no reverb:
http://sites.google.com/site/waveblastergm/Death-WB1noreverb.ogg
SC-55 versions please:
http://sites.google.com/site/waveblastergm/DEATH.XMI

Wave Blaster:
http://sites.google.com/site/waveblastergm/Shannara20-WB1.ogg
Wave Blaster - no reverb:
http://sites.google.com/site/waveblastergm/Shannara20-WB1noreverb.ogg
SC-55 versions please:
http://sites.google.com/site/waveblastergm/S20.XMI

Wave Blaster:
http://sites.google.com/site/waveblastergm/Shannara29-WB1.ogg
Wave Blaster - no reverb:
http://sites.google.com/site/waveblastergm/Shannara29-WB1noreverb.ogg
SC-55 versions please:
http://sites.google.com/site/waveblastergm/S29.XMI

Shannara solo strings theme
Wave Blaster:
http://sites.google.com/site/waveblastergm/Shannara6-WB1.ogg
Wave Blaster - no reverb:
http://sites.google.com/site/waveblastergm/ link in progress
SC-55 versions please:
http://sites.google.com/site/waveblastergm/S6.XMI

Al-Quadim dramatic brass theme
Wave Blaster:
http://sites.google.com/site/waveblastergm/Al-Quadim2-WB1.ogg (check especially this one!)
Wave Blaster - no reverb:
http://sites.google.com/site/waveblastergm/ link in progress
SC-55 versions please:
http://sites.google.com/site/waveblastergm/ST1_GR4.XMI

Nemesys: The Wizardry Adventure epic orchestral theme
Wave Blaster:
http://sites.google.com/site/waveblastergm/Wizardry%20Nemesys-WB1.ogg
Wave Blaster - no reverb:
http://sites.google.com/site/waveblastergm/ link in progress
SC-55 versions please:
http://sites.google.com/site/waveblastergm/GSTORY_B.XMI

Ideally - please try to balance the volume of SC55 examples with my examples - I mean, of course, only the overall volume of the audio files, so that the SC55s aren't much louder (as were sometimes in your comparison) or quieter than the WB files. Thanks!

[NewRisingSUn]

Replying to a post in the old thread:

I ripped the midi files from Privateer some time back, do you think you'd be able to record one or two tunes?  I've hosted the MIDIs and some recordings here: http://www.mtyson.id.au/MIDI/Privateer/

The MIDIs from Righterous Fire are incorrectly converted, and the MP4s made from them sound incorrect as a consequence. Gaea in particular is missing instruments and has "Dooh" choirs instead of the correct "Aaah".

Edit: It seems that the problem does not lie with the conversion but that you've accidently used the Adlib XMIs instead of the General MIDI XMIs.

[Ari]

I have removed the posts that had nothing to do with this topic. Please keep it topical.

[Salient]

Salient: I would prefer too if you would start it more like a new topic on a clear page. Never mind.
In a very short - I've sent you the quickly fixed Alienz, you heard it, technically it's a matter of pitch bend sensitive. No MIDI CC error, of course. I could explain it in more detail, but it's nothing important.
About drums - sure, most of them are far more conservative.
Hovewer, Salient, may I ask you, would you be so kind to complete the list with the SC-55 samples? I've added some more musics. Thanks.
Ideally - please try to balance the volume of SC55 examples with my examples - I mean, of course, only the overall volume of the audio files, so that the SC55s aren't much louder (as were sometimes in your comparison) or quieter than the WB files. Thanks!

I will try to get started with it tonight and will also try to keep the volume the same as your recordings.

[WBman]

I will try to get started with it tonight and will also try to keep the volume the same as your recordings.

Great, man. Thanks a lot!

[Synthesized]

The MIDIs from Righterous Fire are incorrectly converted, and the MP4s made from them sound incorrect as a consequence. Gaea in particular is missing instruments and has "Dooh" choirs instead of the correct "Aaah".

Edit: It seems that the problem does not lie with the conversion but that you've accidently used the Adlib XMIs instead of the General MIDI XMIs.

Oops.

You're right, I accidently ripped the XMI files from BASETUN2.ADL  (The adlib file).  I've re-ripped them from the GM file and redone the Roland MP4 recordings.  I'm pretty sure the XMI to MIDI conversion is correct.

[NewRisingSUn]

The MIDI file is now correct, but the SCB-55 .mp4 is missing the percussion.

[Synthesized]

The MIDI file is now correct, but the SCB-55 .mp4 is missing the percussion.

Hmm, I dunno what is going on there.  I'd have to load the game up and see what it sounds like when played from within the game.   I don't actually remember what it is supposed to sound like.

[NewRisingSUn]

I notice that the SCB-55 is based on the SC-55mkII, which does have problems with games that select incorrect drum map numbers (the original SC-55 wasn't as picky). If that is the source of the problem, it won't sound right in-game either.

I made a recording (do not quote the link) myself. It's from a CM-500, which is why it's a bit noisy.

I'm not trying to nitpick here, it's just that I consider this to be the coolest piece of the whole Wing Commander saga. Usually I hate too much chorus, but here it perfectly conveys that ecstatic religious fanaticism from the in-game narrative. Would love to hear a correct XG recording.

[Salient]

@WBMan: I am going to get started on the recordings, really. I have been very busy with work.

In the meantime everybody can enjoy my midi stuff set-up at the attic (yes, with the controversial waveblaster too! )

All of the stuff in the corner. I took the waveblaster out of the pile of other wavetable cards in the black box


The waveblaster connected to the external midi interface.

[andrew603]

Nice photos Salient.  An infamous "black box"!  I love the front switch on the MT-32!  Is that ISA-to-USB box?

Also, If you have the time, I'd still like to hear SQ5 and SQ6 on the WB.  Particularly any of the following:
SQ6: Intro, Orion's Belt Bar 1-3, Roger's Place, Shuttle Bay
SQ5: Intro or Closing

[Salient]

Nice photos Salient.  An infamous "black box"!  I love the front switch on the MT-32!  Is that ISA-to-USB box?

The external box for the daughterboards is self-made (i used existing schematics of course) and its just a self powered MIDI interface, no USB, just with plain MIDI cables. The switch on the MT-32 is the on/off switch of the built-in power supply.
The SC-55 on top of the mt-32 also has a built-in power supply.

Pics of the inside can be found here for the mt-32 and here for the sc-55.

Also, If you have the time, I'd still like to hear SQ5 and SQ6 on the WB.  Particularly any of the following:
SQ6: Intro, Orion's Belt Bar 1-3, Roger's Place, Shuttle Bay
SQ5: Intro or Closing

Sure, can you provide me the MIDI files ?

[andrew603]

Sure, can you provide me the MIDI files ?

Sure, Sent via IM.

It'd probably be easiest to just record the first 9:18 of the complete SQ6 soundtrack. Then the other independent files.

[WBman]

I don't see much point in recording SQ 5,6 with Wave Blaster. These soundtracks are very light-popish, evidently SC-depending, with many effects, no real instrument orchestrations, just nothing where any other synth could show anything. They will sound nice on a Roland synth (or maybe on a similar synth which tries to emulate Roland type sound as well), that's all the message. They would sound not too good even on high-end Kurzweil K2500 synth.
I'm looking forward to those other Salient's (btw. very nice photos) recordings he's making - these will cover many different composition, orchestration and instrument musical situations, from sectional to solo strings, woodwinds, brass, percussive, fast, dramatic, as well as slow, romantic, dreamy, catchy tracks. This will show. But i'm convinced that SQs will not sound right on the WB. So the recordings will appear, will not sound good, and? 

[andrew603]

"light-popish" LOL.  Have you heard any of the SQ5 or SQ6 music?

A large portion of the music from both games is an orchestral arrangement, then also covers a large variety of additional music styles.  They are standard General MIDI game soundtracks just like anything else.  They are also not in some provably inconsistent file format and are available for download right here at QuestStudios.

They sound great on the XV-5080 and Fantom XR in their GM Modes.  Clearly those are both garbage synthesizers compared to the WaveBlaster Doughterboard.  They also sound great on the Korg X5DR and MU128 too, actually.  Heck, these soundtracks even make my old Casio CTK-601 sound good.

I also remember playing SQ6 when it was released, with an AWE32, and thinking it sounded pretty darned good.

[WBman]

Of course I listened to both of them. I really didn't find much classic orchestral stuff there. And why to record songs like Orion's Belt Bar 1-3, I don't see much point. I tried quickly play back few tunes from the "complete game music" MIDI rip and it sounded quiet strange and buggy on WB. Then I tried to run the game on a DOS computer and voi-la, it sounded much nicer. Although still nothing great as these definitely are not much WB suitable soundtracks. I then tried to test other MIDI rips from here and started with Betrayal at Krondor - the game I know very well, as well as its music. And I was startled - it's completly wrong. For example instead of strings patch 48 playing in the game, it calls synth strings patch 50 + other instruments mistakes, there are also different volume balances. So I don't know but there's is something wrong with these rips. I'm not saying that with all the rips, but at least BAK rip sounds wrong and SQs also sound slightly better when I start the games itself under the DOS, at least the intro sequences.

[Salient]

Alright,

The recording request of WBMan is done.
All recording saved in Ogg Vorbis format and volumes adjusted to meet the Wave Blaster recording levels as good as possible.
All recordings done on a real Roland SC-55 (not Mk2) and also on a Yamaha MU2000 without extra effects added, and re-initialized before every recording.
Included WBMan's recordings to have everything together.

Here are the files (164MB in total): CLICK HERE