Commodore 64 - Third time's a charm?

[Cloudschatze]

I've never had much luck "getting into" the Commodore. I didn't grow up with it, and neither did any of my friends. I'm a Commodore Dunce, if you will.

Several years back, a co-worker dumped his C-128D collection on me. Hardware, software, accessories galore, programming books and magazines, the whole shebang. I'm convinced that someone had a very spoiled childhood. I hooked the system up exactly one time, and then turned around and dumped it all on another co-worker the following week.

Last year, at a community garage sale, I decided to try again with a $5 C-128 system. The power-supply was missing, but I figured I'd just pick one up from eBay. This has yet to happen.

But... I feel that I've been given a third chance. A chance to redeem myself. A chance to accept the Commodore into my life... HALLELUJAH!

Or something.

This past weekend I wandered into a thrift shop and noticed an ugly piece of computer kit in the "collectibles" display case. Or, rather, some sort of computer in an ugly brown case.

Against my better judgement, I freed it from its ugly brown entrapment...

Commodore SX-64... Not ringing any bells.
Built-in monitor... Probably monochromatic.
Smells like grandma's home... Looks like "grandma," or anyone else, never used the thing.
And the keyboard cable is where?... Hope eBay has one.
$20.00... Hmm. Not sure I want to spend $20.

But I did, thinking that, at worst, it was probably worth more than that anyhow.

Took it home, powered-it on... Yep, monochrome screen. Oh wait, what's this "Color" knob?

Bam! Ten-times cooler.


So, now we get to the heart of the matter.

To anyone who owns, or owned one, what really makes the Commodore cool? Does a certain piece of software do it for you? Is it the SID? Fond memories of hours spent typing in a program from a magazine?

There is no way I can re-live your nostalgia, but what might I do to create some of my own?

[Great Hierophant]

I'm sorry, I really can't draw up much enthusiasm for the C-64.  Its hard to truly appreciate the machine if you are not from Europe.  The scene over there was great.  Over here, the Apple and the Atari seemed to get all the best games first, and by the time the C-64 really acquired steam, so did the PC and the Nintendo. 

[MichalN]

I'm sorry, I really can't draw up much enthusiasm for the C-64.  Its hard to truly appreciate the machine if you are not from Europe.  The scene over there was great.  Over here, the Apple and the Atari seemed to get all the best games first, and by the time the C-64 really acquired steam, so did the PC and the Nintendo.

Same thing in reverse with the Apple II in Europe. They just weren't here. Atari 800 was the one 8-bit micro that I think was popular on both sides of the pond.

The Sinclairs (ZX-81, ZX Spectrum, etc.) were big in the UK and somewhat popular in continental Europe, but virtually unknown in the US I believe.

The C64 SX is a cool machine, a portable computer with teensy colour CRT and keyboard that doubled as front panel cover. I used to play with one when I was a kid. The company my parents worked for used a C64 SX for taking tensometer readings in the field.

What made the C64 cool? The games, the SID, and mostly the fact that we were kids. It's kind of like Star Wars - if you were a kid when you first saw Star Wars, you probably think it's one of the best movies ever. If you were an adult, you don't get what the hoopla is all about.

[kreatorb]

http://www.old-computers.com/fun/stupid_scans/stupid_commodore-executive-64.jpg

OOh baby  - just think.. it could be you sitting by that pool.

[BlueMax]

You just found a real SCORE!  Commodore64 + monitor in a portable = really collectible!  Quite rare!

If nothing else, put it on eBay and profit!


People loved the impressive-at-the-time graphics and STILL-impressive-now SID music.  Made for some great classic games!

[Cloudschatze]

I'm sorry, I really can't draw up much enthusiasm for the C-64.

I completely understand this. In fact, if I were offered the C-128D hoard again, I'd turn it down.

It's the "micro-enthusiast" in me that loves the SX-64, and its 5" screen. Wouldn't something like this make your day?

http://www.old-computers.com/fun/stupid_scans/stupid_commodore-executive-64.jpg

OOh baby  - just think.. it could be you sitting by that pool.

Haha... Ew!

So, what are some "classic" game examples, specific to personal experiences?

[Ari]

http://www.old-computers.com/fun/stupid_scans/stupid_commodore-executive-64.jpg

OOh baby  - just think.. it could be you sitting by that pool.

This is probably the first time a girl in an ad with a miniature excuse for a bikini, couldn't make the item advertised any less unattractive... 

[kreatorb]

I sort of missed the commodore boat too, but I've got quite a bit of stuff now (Mostly half working). Unfortunately loading things from disk is quite a chore on the c64, but you can do a lot of cool things with the right add ons.

- You should first get a retro replay (or other fastload cart) - the speed of the disk drives on the c64 is simply pants - esp the 1541 based drives
- You could also make a cable and setup a 486 to use as a remote fdd
- You can get a MMC64 and load it with the High Voltage Sid Collection or some disk images
- The IDE64 looks promising too.. but the new revision isn't released
- You can pull the SID chip and make a MIDIBOX SID based synth.
btw: This is a really awesome one
- Or you can pull a few SID chips to use in a HardSID (costly)
- You can also get a Prophet64 midi interface

Commodore used to have a very catchy

jingle

in Australia - made me want one at the time.

And a good general purpose c64 forum is Lemon 64

[Cloudschatze]

- You could also make a cable and setup a 486 to use as a remote fdd

Cool idea. This would integrate nicely with my current stuff.

- You can get a MMC64 and load it with the High Voltage Sid Collection or some disk images

I'm actually considering an MMC64! Will it run the disk images directly from the SD card, or do they need to be copied to disk first?

- You can also get a Prophet64 midi interface

Hmm. I may have to get one of these.

[Great Hierophant]

I've seen an SX-64 in the flesh before, it is justly impressive.  The Commodore 64, had some good original games, but very few in comparison to the Apple II and the IBM PC.  The Atari systems had many more cartridge games.   Few people over here really cared about the SID chip, as the quality of the music in US games show. 

[shad0wfax]

To anyone who owns, or owned one, what really makes the Commodore cool? Does a certain piece of software do it for you? Is it the SID? Fond memories of hours spent typing in a program from a magazine?

Well, The C64 was my first computer, and this fact always has a great psychological influence in everyone's judgements, so consider my opinion as a biased one

Compared to other common computers in Europe at that time (Sinclair ZX spectrum, Atari 8 bit, IBM PC/XT and the like), the commodore had colourful graphics, great games (from the "playability" point of view), it was surprisingly fast considering its theoretical specs, with, for instance, multi-level smooth & lovely sceen scrolling, and, best of all, it had MUSIC istead of "beeps", "bleeps", "growls", "cracks" and the like. I remember myself loading games (some of them quite bad ones) simply to stand in front of the TV set (no monitor yet) and listening to the music for several minutes. I also did a bit of programming, but I used the C= mostly for games.

At that time (early/mid 80s), IMO in the 8-bit department only the MSX was a good alternative to the C64, but even considering that the MSX was better in some technical aspects, I still prefer the Commodore for the music and the screen scrolling.

The Commodore 64, had some good original games, but very few in comparison to the Apple II and the IBM PC

Not in Europe! There were zillions of games for the C=. The Apple II, on the other hand, was nearly inexistent here. Also, in general terms, the games produced in Europe for the C64 were better than those produced by US' companies. I suppose that this only reflected the situation of the market in both continents, and hence the level of interest in producing high quality products and being a sales hit.

[MichalN]

Well, The C64 was my first computer, and this fact always has a great psychological influence in everyone's judgements, so consider my opinion as a biased one

A C64 was my first computer as well, so I'll add more biased opinion

Compared to other common computers in Europe at that time (Sinclair ZX spectrum, Atari 8 bit, IBM PC/XT and the like), the commodore had colourful graphics, great games (from the "playability" point of view), it was surprisingly fast considering its theoretical specs, with, for instance, multi-level smooth & lovely sceen scrolling, and, best of all, it had MUSIC istead of "beeps", "bleeps", "growls", "cracks" and the like. I remember myself loading games (some of them quite bad ones) simply to stand in front of the TV set (no monitor yet) and listening to the music for several minutes. I also did a bit of programming, but I used the C= mostly for games.

In mid to late 1980s, C64 was a very popular gaming platform in Europe, and for a good reason.

The ZX Spectrum had a Z-80 CPU which was faster than C64's MOS 6502. But the Sinclairs had very limited graphics (low color, almost monochromatic) and poor sound. Apple II, for most intents and purposes, didn't exist. The Atari 800 was technically C64's closest competitor and better in some aspects, but there weren't as many games for it. There were other 8-bit micros like Amstrad-Schneider CPC, some of them technically superior, but those were not very widespread.

In mid to late 1980s, PCs sucked as a gaming platform. They had relatively fast CPUs but CGA graphics wasn't as good as the C64 and other micros, and sound was awful. The VGA and AdLib/SoundBlaster changed that, but that was in the 1990s. In addition, PCs were quite expensive. In late 1980s, the best home computer probably was the Commodore Amiga, which was of course not comparable to the C64 in technical specs - or price.

Technically, the C64 had a relatively crappy CPU, but compared to other 8-bit micros it had some advantages. There was real 64KB of RAM, in addition to ROM. The SID was a surprisingly capable sound chip. The graphics chip was decent, not great, but sprites (with hardware collision detection!) and scrolling helped a great deal. The weakest point, in my experience, was storage - there were 5.25" floppy drives and even high capacity (800KB) 3.5" floppy drives, but they used a serial interface that was dog slow. OTOH the floppy drives had their own CPU and RAM, which was pretty cool

I consider the C64 as a proof of the victory of mind over matter. C64 games released around 1990 were incomparably better than early 1980s C64 games. The hardware hasn't changed at all, people just learned how to use it efficiently. These days, hardware becomes obsolete before people really figure out how to use it.

[shad0wfax]

Hey MichalN, I see that we share quite a lot regarding our points of view about the good ol' C64

Technically, the C64 had a relatively crappy CPU

I disagree a bit here. Perhaps the Zilog Z80 was technically a better CPU than the MOS 6502 (or 6510, virtually the same thing), but not very much, and in no way the 6502 was crappy. It's quite significative that the 6502 was the chosen CPU not only for C= 8-bit machines, but also for many others such as the Atari 8-bit series, the Apple II, the Oric Atmos, the Sega master system, and many many embedded systems (not computers in the strict sense). Tens of millions of 6502s have been sold during many years. And although the Z80 was clocked at around 3.5Mhz, it had an internal frecuency divisor that made that, actually, it wasn't much faster than the 6502. The latter ran at 1Mhz, but it was a "real" one. Also, the MOS 6502 has a quite limited instruction set very much in the line of RISC cpu's, hence improving its performance (at the cost of being more difficult to program).

I consider the C64 as a proof of the victory of mind over matter. C64 games released around 1990 were incomparably better than early 1980s C64 games. The hardware hasn't changed at all, people just learned how to use it efficiently. These days, hardware becomes obsolete before people really figure out how to use it.

Totally agreed. The C64 scene has really pushed the machine to its limits and beyond, and when watching a recent demo (from year 2000 or newer), you simply have to shout: "but can a C64 REALLY do that???!!!"

[Laust]

You just found a real SCORE!  Commodore64 + monitor in a portable = really collectible!  Quite rare!

Not rare, but certainly sought after.  An NTSC model is kinda boring, though, as most of the really cool more recent stuff is PAL-only

One thing Cloudschatze could do is dig up the C64 version of Times of Lore and listen to the original 7 minute intro song (it will even play at correct speed and pitch on an NTSC machine, seeing as it was a US game).

My first real machine (not counting a rubber-keyboard ZX81 clone) was a C64, so it holds a very special position to me.

Edit... new reply came up while I was doing mine...

the 6502 was the chosen [...]the Sega master system"

The SMS was Z80, but the NES/Famicom used a 6502 clone/copy (with all the patented stuff taken out and new stuff for sound added, as I recall).

I wouldn't call the 6502 a RISC CPU, as there are plenty of things that aren't RISC about it. Anyway, no Z80 vs 6502 flame wars here   The C64 definitely had an edge over other machines from the same era, thanks to the dedicated graphics and sound hardware, and it's no less an impressive feat when you consider that the machine was only in development for about a year, from design to finished product (Jack Tramiel worked his engineers hard!).  I can highly recommend this book for anyone interested in the history of Commodore (not just the C64) or the 6502.

[shad0wfax]

he SMS was Z80, but the NES/Famicom used a 6502 clone/copy

Yep, you're right; I knew that one of the two most famous 8-bit consoles equipped a 6502, but obviously I was confused about which one   

I wouldn't call the 6502 a RISC CPU, as there are plenty of things that aren't RISC about it

No, of course it's not a RISC CPU in a technical sense, but I only stressed that it had a quite limited instruction set compared to other models and this fact affected to the performance.

I can highly recommend this book for anyone interested in the history of Commodore (not just the C64) or the 6502

I ordered that book a couple of weeks ago and I just can't wait it to arrive here and to start reading it . I'd even be interested in making a Spanish translation of the book, but only as long as I could find a publishing house interested in it  (and, of course, with the previous permission of the author and the publisher)

[MichalN]

Technically, the C64 had a relatively crappy CPU

I disagree a bit here. Perhaps the Zilog Z80 was technically a better CPU than the MOS 6502 (or 6510, virtually the same thing), but not very much, and in no way the 6502 was crappy.

The 6502 wasn't too bad compared to other 8-bit CPUs. Compared to 8086 and especially 68k, which were available around the same time, it was a pain to work with. The three 8-bit user registers weren't much, and the instruction set was quite limited (not even multiply, let alone division!).

It's quite significative that the 6502 was the chosen CPU not only for C= 8-bit machines, but also for many others such as the Atari 8-bit series, the Apple II, the Oric Atmos, the Sega master system, and many many embedded systems (not computers in the strict sense). Tens of millions of 6502s have been sold during many years.

True. The CPU was immensely popular and did sell in the tens of millions. Its killer feature was low price, and it had excellent price/performance ratio. I think that's the major reason why it was chosen for so many designs.

And although the Z80 was clocked at around 3.5Mhz, it had an internal frecuency divisor that made that, actually, it wasn't much faster than the 6502. The latter ran at 1Mhz, but it was a "real" one. Also, the MOS 6502 has a quite limited instruction set very much in the line of RISC cpu's, hence improving its performance (at the cost of being more difficult to program).

It's true that the 1MHz clocking frequency was relatively low, but most instructions completed in 2-3 cycles. Compare with 8088 which was clocked at 4.77MHz but instructions which accessed memory rarely executed in under 10 cycles, and often took much longer. The 6502 wasn't RISC in that it didn't use a load/store architecture, but it did have a relatively small and orthogonal instruction set. The ability to execute instructions in very few cycles is I think what set it apart from most other CPUs of that era.

Totally agreed. The C64 scene has really pushed the machine to its limits and beyond, and when watching a recent demo (from year 2000 or newer), you simply have to shout: "but can a C64 REALLY do that???!!!"

Any URLs? I've not used a C64 much since, oh, 1992 or so, but I still have my old machine safely stored away and fully functional...

[shad0wfax]

Any URLs?

You can try general C64 sites such as www.c64.com or www.c64.ch . A site which is specialized exclusively in the C64 scene is http://noname.c64.org/csdb/ (Commodore Scene DataBase). You'll find good stuff there.

Also, although I still keep my C64 and my 1541 DD, it's OK (and easier) using an emulator, such as VICE. They've reached a nearly perfect level of accuracy in the emulation.

[Cloudschatze]

One thing Cloudschatze could do is dig up the C64 version of Times of Lore and listen to the original 7 minute intro song (it will even play at correct speed and pitch on an NTSC machine, seeing as it was a US game).

It's on the agenda.

I did have a listen to the Times of Lore tunes at Lemon64. Other than the "end" of the title tune, I think I prefer the Game Blaster versions. Perhaps they'll sound better when played-back on the actual hardware.

[NewRisingSUn]

Perhaps they'll sound better when played-back on the actual hardware

Yes, perhaps. But I think the real reason is that the SID is the most overhyped sound chip of all time.

[Laust]

I can recommend The Demo Dungeon as a resource for demos.