Games composed for MT-32 or GM

[Cybercow]

I was wondering if we could draw up a list of all Sierra Classics which have both MT-32 and GM support and determine for which one the composer actually made the initial soundtrack.

And if the other soundtrack was actually a simple conversion, or some real work was put in that one as well.

Some that I'm wondering about are The Dagger of Amon Ra and Police Quest 1 VGA.

Feel free to add any other ones.

[Tom]

Some that I'm wondering about are The Dagger of Amon Ra and Police Quest 1 VGA.

I have no doubt both were composed with the SC-55, and support for the MT-32 was provided by means of a General MIDI patch bank.  Primarily any Sierra title using this GM patch bank for the MT-32 gave priority to the SC-55.  SQ4 was an exception (after the game's initial release) and later had a converted GM soundtrack.  Probably others, but I can't think right now.  Other ways of knowing for sure is by note-on velocities in soundtracks.  SC and MT-32 are much different.

[Kaminari]

The General MIDI specification was released in 1991 and most game publishers didn't use it before 1993 (Sierra being one of the first with Quest for Glory 3 in late 1992). As a rule of thumb, every Sierra game from 1993 and beyond was composed for the Sound Canvas and then transcripted onto the MT-32 with varying results.

[Alistair]

I disagree with both Kaminari and Tom. Firstly:

I have no doubt both were composed with the SC-55, and support for the MT-32 was provided by means of a General MIDI patch bank. Primarily any Sierra title using this GM patch bank for the MT-32 gave priority to the SC-55. SQ4 was an exception (after the game's initial release) and later had a converted GM soundtrack. Probably others, but I can't think right now.  Other ways of knowing for sure is by note-on velocities in soundtracks. SC and MT-32 are much different.

Well, Tom's right about note-on velocities. They really do differ a lot between the SC and MT.

However.. for my money, both Laura Bow 2 and PQ1VGA are MT-32 games, with SC-55 support included because Sierra had JUST started to have them- in fact according to Rudy Helm Sierra's first Roland Sound Canvas SC-55 was used by Braymen and Helm in working with Dagger of Amon Ra's music! But yes, that was MT-32- or a bizarre case of joint-support. Hard one to call.

PQ1VGA was more obviously a MT-32 support game, used a patch bank with a LOT of good custom sounds. Just listen to the track 'Marie' with a MT-32, then a SC-55, and THEN tell me the game was composed for the Roland Sound Canvas. It certainly was NOT.

The list would take too long, but is a good idea. I always say games up until PQ1 VGA and Dagger were MT-32 only, those had reasonable support for both (yet I believe they were both MT scores), and after them it was all GM (including rerelases on CD of QFG1VGA, KQ5, SQ4, and EQ1, which all had new GM scores, which were worse than the original MT-32 scores, but still are OK- EQ1's is nice for example).

The General MIDI specification was released in 1991 and most game publishers didn't use it before 1993 (Sierra being one of the first with Quest for Glory 3 in late 1992). As a rule of thumb, every Sierra game from 1993 and beyond was composed for the Sound Canvas and then transcripted onto the MT-32 with varying results.

This is only wrong slightly. QFG3, as he says, was probably the first full GM supported game, and as he even says, 92, not 93..

Sierra used it in 1991- PQ1VGA and Dagger (disk version). I think they were both 91.. maybe both 92.

The Incredible Machine 1 could well be the first Sierra game (albeit Dynamix really) to have a proper SC-55 score, and not just support (91 I think). QFG3 being the next. Then everything 92 and onwards was GM.. MT-32 support decreasing and in late 93/early 94 (after QFG4, basically) gameslike KQ7, SQ6 had no MT-32 support to speak of whatsoever. As Rudy Helm said to me recently, ".. Sierra at that point was interested in quick-and-dirty legacy audio
support. The general thought was, "now we have GM, let's not waste time
reinventing the wheel (by inventing patches on older game devices)"."

Good quote, that.

I suppose it's relevant to point out that one myth (that at least I know I had thought true) dispelled by chatting with Rudy was the one of composers doing their own conversions. Rudy Helm did the Dagger Of Amon Ra conversions (though that may have been SC-55-> MT-32), and apparently other composers didn't do their own soundtracks (Rudy did a lot of GM->MT conversions).. makes sense to me, because I don't think Robert Holmes did the MT-32 conversions for Gabriel Knight, for example.

- Alistair

[Tom]

I'd have to hear that from the composers -- or the one's who are sequencing the music.  I can tell instantly from my own music files what device a given instrument was sequenced to play on.

What is it about the note-on velocities that tells you what a soundtrack may be sequenced to play on?

[Fancia]

I have no doubt both were composed with the SC-55, and support for the MT-32 was provided by means of a General MIDI patch bank.

Laura Bow, at least, doesn't use a General MIDI patch order in the MT-32 soundtrack; it can be listened to only with its own SysEx (which also won't work for any other soundtracks), not a GM SysEx from any other source.

[Alistair]

I'd have to hear that from the composers -- or the one's who are sequencing the music. I can tell instantly from my own music files what device a given instrument was sequenced to play on.

I promise you PQ1 VGA is MT-32. Have you never played the game with a MT-32 (or compared the MT output to that of the Sound Canvas-55)? Compare the track for 'Marie'; it's patently obvious. The MT-32 has clean guitars (ElecGtr MS), a 'Slosh Hat', the MT 'Hefty Bass', a 'Rap Snare' for the drums, and possibly something else.. all the GM (SC-55) track has is 'Fingered Bass' ('Hefty Bass' converted) and two Clean guitars, covnerted from the MT's. Tell me THAT's GM support in PQ1VGA. The use of dog's and a triangle in a later Hotel Delphoria piece is another good example. Noone composes for the SC-55 and converts to the MT-32, using a dog and a triangle. Come on, have you never heard the MT score man?
Another good example is the way a lot of MT-32 controllers play on the Sound Canvas, where their instrumetns couldn't convert. Like in that second hotel delphoria track which uses dogs and a triangle on the MT-32. On the SC, the volume controllers and other benders and stuff still send, but the notes and patch changes have been deleted. Happens with a few PQ1VGA pieces. But there's so many (obvious) reasons this isn't a GM game. Certainly doesn't use the Gm patch bank.

With regards to the game "Dagger of Amon Ra", the jury IS out (with regards to MT or GM support), but I still believe it was a MT-32 game. The way the MT-32 score was arranged, was not that of a game which had GM support and was dumbed down (by Rudy Helm in this case it so happens) to the MT-32. Sierra's "Sierra On-Line" GM Sysex bank was NOT used, as Fancia so rightly points out. New custom instruments were made for the game, like 'WarmPadStr', 'Oboe MS', 'BanjoLB2' ( ).. etc etc. Lots of old ones like 'BassPizzMS' were used too. None of which are in the GM SysEx bank, except of course the 'Laura Bow 2 Banjo'. But let's not start this again. Sure, I prefer some GM LB2 pieces. The Roland MT-32 does jazz OK, but I prefer SC jazz (kinda why although I love LSL5's music, the MT-32 never quite did it justice for my money).
There are other reasons why I believe it was MT-32 (the MT-32's slide trombones which Brayman composed for well, because he WAS a trombonist, whereas the SC had to use tubas to accommodate) but it's really not important.. (I just debate it because I like discussing the music. )

What is it about the note-on velocities that tells you what a soundtrack may be sequenced to play on?

I assume this is addressed to me, in a sort of 'testing me' way? From my understanding, the MT-32 plays notes well at lower velocities, whereas the SC often can't handle low velocities, at least ones that some MT soundtracks use. Some MT-32 reverse cymbals play at on-velocities of 2. The SC-55 plays that, yuo hear NOTHING. MT-32 pianos (like "Chicago MS") also require lower velocities than the SC equivalent (in most cases "Honkytonk").
Of coruse it varies with certain instruments.. the SC choir works better at lower velocities. And I don't understand organ velocities.

But I DO know the SC-55 needs higher velocities, as a rule of thumb.

- Alistair

[Tom]

I only played PQ1 VGA with MT-32 support, but that was over a decade ago.  I was a huge fan of the original EGA game and was very disapointed with the remake ... especially the music.  I've recorded several of the GM tracks, and converted some myself.  All the GM tracks sound better to me, but what do I know.

'Dagger' sounds far better to me; much more natural, in the GM arrangement.  The MT-32 soundtrack really bugged me, and I didn't care for most of the music in the game until I heard the GM version.

Whether or not either of these games support the MT-32 or SC-55, I strongly believe, as I've said before, they were composed on a SC-55.  Maybe Atesalp and Brayman will stop by a clear it up.

[Cybercow]

Alistair,

Do I understand it correctly that Sierra actually released the CD versions of LB2, SQ4 and EQ1 (KQ5 CD never had a GM driver, at least my version doesn't) with a new GM score and a MT32 score derived from this GM score instead of the existing, original disk-version MT32 score ?

This would mean that those CD versions are inferior to the disk version for MT-32 owners ....

[Zemus]

They came with GM-versions of the soundtrack as well as the MT-32 version.
The Windows version of KQ5 has a GM soundtrack.

[Alistair]

What Zemus said is sort of right.. anyways. Let's reply to Cybercow..

Do I understand it correctly that Sierra actually released the CD versions of LB2, SQ4 and EQ1 (KQ5 CD never had a GM driver, at least my version doesn't) with a new GM score and a MT32 score derived from this GM score instead of the existing, original disk-version MT32 score ?

This would mean that those CD versions are inferior to the disk version for MT-32 owners ....

No, not correct. LB2 differed from EQ1 and SQ4. EQ1/SQ4 had original disk versions with JUST MT-32 support. They were rereleased with CD versions featuring a GM driver as well as the original MT driver. Needless to say, the MT soundtracks are better..

Laura Bow II had a disk version and a CD version rerelease (or even 2 versions like GK? I don't remember) with both MT-32 and GM soundtracks.

KQ5 Windows version DID have GM support (albeit nothing flash). I played the Windows version when I didn't realise how crappy Windows versions were, and when I had no Roland MT-32..

The MT-32 scores were kept, and the new GM scores in EQ1/SQ4 were converted from the original MT scores. The GM score for SQ4 isn't too bad, and EQ1's is really good, for what it is..

Hope that clears things up for you?

- Alistair

[Cybercow]

Thanks Alistair,

That does clear it up nicely.

For a second there, I was fearing that I would have to go hunting
for the disk versions on E-bay to get the best MT-32 score ...

[Great Hierophant]

I played PQ1VGA with a Roland CM-500 in CM-64 LA mode and I was astounded with the quality of the various compositions.  I then tried it using the CM-300 GS mode and was struck by how inferior it sounded.  I am firmly in the camp that believes that PQ1VGA's music was composed for the MT-32.

[Alistair]

Oh, no doubt! I have various examples of where Rob Atesalp 'dumbed down' the MT-32 score for the SC-55/GM. Just look at Sweet Cheeks Marie's Theme, if anyone wants the files recorded digitally I'll be happy to upload them.

- Alistair

[reines]

Though this is an ancient thread - I didn't want to open a new one with the same topic.

I wanted to ask if since this discussion, such a list has been compiled somewhere.

It seems clear that 91- games were compiled for MT-32 while 93+ ones were compiled for GM, but it remains unclear for the various 92 games.

[NewRisingSUn]

Both LB2 and PQ1's instrument banks are normal MT-32 banks like all previous games; the General MIDI 4.PAT is the regular MT-32-to-GM translation as all the "after-market" files. This means that both games were composed for MT-32. Had they been composed for General MIDI, it would have been the other way round --- General MIDI 4.PAT would merely pass through the data unmodified while the MT-32 bank would do the translation.

[reines]

Hi,

Thank you for your answer.

What about other 92' games, such as QFG1VGA, KQ6, and Island of Dr. Brain?

Also - regarding sierra 93 games and onwards, were all of them composed for GM?

Thanks again

[Great Hierophant]

This is a list of all Sierra games with native (i.e. non-converted) MT-32 support. 

1988 Christmas Card
1990 Christmas Card - The Seasoned Professional
Adventures of Willy Beamish, The
Castle of Dr. Brain
Codename: Iceman
Colonel's Bequest, The
Conquests of Camelot: The Search for the Grail
Conquests of the Longbow: The Legend of Robin Hood
EcoQuest: The Search for Cetus
Firehawk: Thexder the Second Contact
Heart of China
Hero's Quest: So You Want to Be a Hero
Hoyle's Official Book of Games: Volume 1
Hoyle's Official Book of Games: Volume 2
Hoyle's Official Book of Games: Volume 3
Jones in the Fast Lane
King's Quest I: Quest for the Crown
King's Quest IV: The Perils of Rosella
King's Quest V: Absence Makes the Heart Go Yonder!
Laura Bow: The Dagger of Amon Ra
Leisure Suit Larry 3: Passionate Patti in Pursuit of the Pulsating Pectorals
Leisure Suit Larry 5: Passionate Patti Does a Little Undercover Work
Leisure Suit Larry Goes Looking for Love (in Several Wrong Places)
Leisure Suit Larry in the Land of the Lounge Lizards
Mixed-Up Fairy Tales
Mixed-Up Mother Goose
Police Quest II: The Vengeance
Police Quest III: The Kindred
Police Quest: In Pursuit of the Death Angel
Quest for Glory II: Trial by Fire
Red Baron
Rise of the Dragon
Silpheed
Sorcerian: Master Scenario
Space Quest I: The Sarien Encounter
Space Quest III: The Pirates of Pestulon
Space Quest IV: Roger Wilco and the Time Rippers
Stellar 7
Zeliard
Nova 9: Return of Gir Draxon
Aces of the Pacific
Front Page Sports: Football
Red Baron: Mission Builder
Aces of the Pacific Expansion Disk: WWII: 1946
Aces Over Europe
The Incredible Machine
Sid & Al's Incredible Toons
Front Page Sports: Football Pro

[NewRisingSUn]

The Incredible Machine
Sid & Al's Incredible Toons

These are definitely GM.

[reines]

Thank you both for the helpful information!

Regarding the 92 games, I'm quite sure that KQ6, and Island of Dr. Brain are both GM, but doesn't QFG1VGA have special patches for MT32?

EDIT: Well, I checked, and QFG1VGA doesn't have the MT-32-to-GM translation 4.PAT, so it seems it indeed is MT32.